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  • sunnyborderblue

    watched it and thought that obama came out on top………again!!! he was clear, concise and did a good job staying on point, in my opinion. i have to say, though, that i did not like the format. i wish there wouldn’t be so many questions but instead, the campaigns and moderators would just let there be a more in-depth discussion on a couple of key issues (economy, energy, healthcare —- not in that particular order). i guess the campaigns are too afraid that somebody would say too much and thus, slip up in some way.

    of course it wasn’t near as entertaining as the VP debate —- mccain didn’t wink at the camera once and we didn’t get to hear a darn thing about alaska 🙁 then again, i’m not so sure that these types of things ought to be entertaining……..but what do i know???

  • admin

    you are right, sunnyborderblue…i am sad i didn’t get to hear the word “maverick” repeated over and over and over… 😉

    seriously…we know there is only one TRUE maverick…

  • http://www.naahidonthinkso.info TechKnomen

    “again!!!” ( obama on top) a completely unbiased assesment thair
    prior to that debate you were a McIsain supporter eh?

  • sunnyborderblue

    tech —– nope, you got me, i admit i never was a mccain supporter. in fact, i’ve never voted republican for the simple fact that my view on every major issue differs significantly from the republican party’s. however, the initial post did ask for opinions and i opted to post mine, plain and simple.

    i sincerely believe, right or wrong, that we need a new direction and a fresh face. at least we will both get to vote and can feel good knowing that we did our part in choosing who we think is the best candidate. the process may not be perfect but at least we have one!!

    anyway, it’ll all be over in just a few short weeks and i’m certain we’ll have plenty more to discuss then.

    take care……..

  • admin

    first off, let me say a big welcome to you, sunnyborderblue…it is good to see ANYBODY posting some comments here, let alone ones that are so cohesive and well thought out!

    it can feel pretty lonely on here sometimes…not just from having to represent my viewpoint…but also from the fact that there just aren’t too many folks around here that have really taken to leaving any comments yet…hopefully that will change, and I’m sure if I’d do a little better job about adding fresh, relevant content, that might help things along a bit.

    and lest anyone think i’m only happy to see sunnyborderblue because they are voting for a Democrat, that isn’t it as all…i want folks from WHATEVER party to get on here and speak up…hell, even if you don’t plan to vote at all! this site exist in order to allow folks from around here have a place to sound off and express themselves.

    i know there are more of you out there reading these pages who just aren’t commenting yet…so get on in here and let’s hear what you have to say. use a fake name…use a fake email address…it makes no difference to me…i’d just like to hear (and see) what you have to say, Morgan County!

  • dhunley

    Hey Dave…Sunny.

    First, I check morganminute.com practically everyday; I just don’t have time to respond adequately and I hate to jump in with snippets if I can’t follow through.

    Second, I understand my style is viewed by some as adversarial…mean hearted…and that kind of stuff. Not meant to be. It is meant to be in the vein of promoting self-reliance, personal freedoms, individual responsibility, and an adherence to the constitution that has served us well. But I’ll try to improve.

    I didn’t watch the debate…partly because I didn’t have time but mostly I have become too disillusioned to care very much. I can’t see ANY American coming out a winner in this election no matter who we wind up electing.

    Sunny, this is what it boils down to for me.

    Do you support your beliefs so strongly that you’re willing to force them onto me? Won’t you allow me to opt out of whatever governmental health care plan, social security plan, or financial plan the government comes up with?

  • sunnyborderblue

    hi dhunley —– first off, i can understand why you’re frustrated with the political landscape right now………i think we all are. personally, i think the 24-hour news circus is terrible. all we get are sound bites, nothing substantial, unless you do your own research which can be a bit time-consuming and tedious. plus, i’m not sure that any of the major networks (nbc, cbs, abc, fox) are objective. i know when we invaded iraq i tended to watch bbc news for the simple fact that they didn’t seem to use the war as a means to boost their ratings. i guess it’s the same reason that i’ve been a little disappointed about the debates —– they just try to squeeze too much information into too little time and as a result, we don’t really come away knowing much more than we did to begin with. oh well……..

    as far as my beliefs go, no, i would hate to think that i was forcing them on you. but, let’s take health care for instance. let me just say up front that i wish we had nationalized health care —- that’s just my opinion, again be it right or wrong. it just seems a shame to me that anyone in this country should go without health care. right now, i get coverage through my job (lucky for me) but i do have to buy an independent plan for a family member which runs me $250/month. i just think that is ridiculous – it doesn’t even include dental or eye care, it is just a basic basic basic health care plan. if i didn’t have to pay this, i could put more money into paying my student loans, put a little into my savings account, etc…..

    from what i understand, obama does not want to force health care on everybody. he has said time and time again that if you are happy with your coverage, then great. however, he does want to mandate that children are covered and has offered incentives to allow for that. i can’t disagree with him on thinking that every child has a right to health insurance. you know as well as i do that there are many many examples out there of families who have been financially devastated when their health insurance doesn’t cover the costs of a serious illness or when they have no health insurance at all. plus, it would lower all of our premiums. it’s the same with car insurance. in other places where i have lived, car insurance has been cheaper because there are fewer people without coverage. however, in eastern kentucky, car insurance is more expensive since there is a greater number of folks without it. again, i just think that we have a moral responsibility to make sure that every person in the US is given a good health insurance plan, especially children. of course, i’m sure you have your reasons, good reasons, to disagree with me and i’m okay with that. heck, i’m just happy you give a damn one way or the other.

    as far as social security is concerned, i’m too tired to even get into that tonight. yeah, it’s broken and yeah, something needs to be done and no, i’m not sure what the best answer is at this point. we all pay into it as a safeguard for the future and lots and lots of people depend on it. i know my grandparents worked their tails off their whole life, raised their children, sent them to college but didn’t really have much to show for it once they hit retirement age. they didn’t live above their means nor were they lazy – they were just ordinary lower to middle class folks. as they got older and their medicine became more expensive (back to health care again 🙂 ), their social security checks were a life saver. they didn’t pay into 401k’s, weren’t lucky enough to have that option. i think of people like them and can’t imagine that they don’t deserve to be taken care of when they are unable to make a living anymore. if people had the option to opt out of paying into social security, what would happen to people like my grandparents? nobody LIKES to see that huge chunk of money being deducted from their checks but i’m not sure what other choice we have. it just seems like the right thing to do, in my opinion.

    the financial situation (i hate to call it a crisis – that just seems to add fuel to the fire) is a mess to be sure. but i think that i read somewhere, and i may be wrong, that stocks fell much lower during the savings and loan crisis a few years back than they have currently. do i think that stocks will miraculously start rebounding? probably not. to be honest, i’ve not had much time to read a whole lot about the plan that was passed (been a little busy with family stuff) but i am happy that the government has at least tried to step in and right the ship. hopefully, it will be a lesson to us all —– people have been broke for much longer than they care to admit, they’ve just been living on borrowed time. i just wish the media would quit harping on it all the time.

    anyway, that’s just what i’m thinking right now —- it’s subject to change :). now, i’m going to go fix a bowl of cereal. thanks for reading my rambling dhunley and have a good friday!!

  • admin

    dhunley…i feel your pain about not being able to always respond. i guess sometimes i feel like if i don’t have an hour to just sit down and write things out, i shouldn’t write anything at all, and so that is what i end up doing.

    and yes, sometimes i hesitate to get in to things with you, dhunley, because it does seem like you get riled up pretty quick…to be fair, however, i sometimes let my passion for the issues we are discussing take over and probably come back at you with a lot more feeling than i should. i guess we both just feel pretty strongly about our positions, and sometimes good discussion suffers as a byproduct of that passion.

    i just want to promote really good, open discussion on here…i love the posts that Sunny has added here…they are so calm and the thoughts are very well collected…and there’s not an ounce of baiting or anger to be found…just a contributor sharing their opinions and ideas and letting us know why, and i think that is fantastic.

    So Sunny, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I’m really enjoying reading what you’ve posted, and I hope you continue to be a regular contributor here.

    for my part, i will do better to try and control myself a bit…not saying that i won’t be calling out things that i feel are wrong or keeping my feelings and passions for the material away from my keyboard…but if i catch myself getting too antagonistic, i’ll try and pull it back in.

    dhunley, when you do get chances to respond, and i really hope that you do, it would be awesome if we could all just try and keep cool and let better conversations develop…i know we seem to have no trouble at all with doing that any time we’ve talked in person. 🙂

    i really do understand that you just have a lot of passion for your positions, as i do for mine, and i never want you to think i’m trying to hush you up so that you don’t share your thoughts here…nothing could be farther from my intentions. i just want to try and draw as many folks in to these conversations as possible, and our goings on back and forth probably intimidate more than a few people in to not responding…so again, i’ll try to watch myself, as well.

    well, now that we’ve had our kum ba yah moment…let’s get back to the discussion, shall we? 😀

  • sue

    I watched the debate and was very proud of Obama. I thought McCain was stale and disrespectful. I used to respect McCain (and still do for his service to the country) but I feel he sold out to get the support of his party. I like Obama’s ideas and think he has a better chance of getting us out of this economic fiasco. I will definitely be voting for Obama after the past couple of months.

  • wondering how stupid the world is

    I like Mccain,Obama Hussein is done attacking or first admendment right has out right lied twice to the american people and on top of the U.N. doesn’t like him either so their will go our allied forces if we every get in a conflict,And I give this country 6/9 months before it falls apart if Obama is voted in his tactics will bring about another civil war if he don’t end up in-peached first then again maybe this is what this country needs a little house cleaning.
    As its been said
    “The world is a beatiful place if you take all the people out of it”

  • Thank God, I’m not dhunley

    administrator, have you forwarded “wondering how stupid the world is” threat to the FBI ?

    If not you should. If you don’t think so , I will.

  • nighthawk

    You might as well forward the contents of the O.S.I. Gazette while your at it.

  • wondering how stupid the world is

    Quote
    “Thank God, I’m not dhunley October 13th, 2008 6:51 pm :

    administrator, have you forwarded “wondering how stupid the world is” threat to the FBI ?

    If not you should. If you don’t think so , I will.”

    Things like this keeps me wondering, I know any one that does follow the debate knows that oboma has violated some civil rights of the American people, And further more in my own personal opion if he is elected he will take a power trip like he has done in the past he will bring about his own in-peachment or we may have another civil war on or hands by not sticking by values that or forefathers has written in our “We The People”

    And
    “Nighthawk”,
    Evendently you understood what I was meaning and written and would proably more educated and can be better hand at explaining it to “Thank God, I’m not dhunley” than I am since I’m simple minded dirt farmer and do not have the time and patience to break it down

  • admin

    “thank god i’m not dhunley”….

    i read what he wrote, and i don’t see a threat in there at all, and i’m not sure exactly how you are reading it that you DO see one. i understand you are passionate about your views…so am i…but frankly, if you go looking for a fight in every forum you post to, you are sure to find one.

    i understand that there are people on the other side that are just as passionate about their views and beliefs as i am, and hopefully i am providing a place where ALL of us can share those views and beliefs without fear of getting yelled at by other members or worried about having the FBI come knocking on their doors.

    if i see a blatant threat, i will definitely take it seriously, but i just don’t see one there. and, i’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t report what is here to the FBI or anyone, as that is the LAST thing anybody needs.

    if we can’t just discuss issues and be allowed to share a viewpoint without fear of someone informing the Federal Government, then what choice do I have really but to just start banning people from posting completely or just shutting this whole site down?

    If you feel like it needs to be discussed further, thank god i’m not dhunley, i would appreciate it if you would email me at dave@morganminute.com before you take any sort of action.

  • Thank God, I’m not dhunley

    administrator:

    At least “wondering…” has cleaned up his use of language and doesn’t sound as deranged as before.

    But then again what is the meaning of “house cleaning” when “you take people out” ?

    Poor choice of words at least.

  • admin

    you know, i looked at it one way…but my wife read it a totally different way.

    i read it to be that he/she was saying that Obama’s policies could lead to a civil war in this country, if he does not get IMpeached first…and then when the poster made the statement about the house cleaning, i thought he/she was talking about the government in general…that maybe it would be a good thing if they all just get swept out…i think i sort of ignored the civil war part of the statement.

    the quote about the world being a good place if you take all the people out of it, i read to be basically a statement about how this world is a good place, as long as there are no people in it…more or less that because of all of us, it makes the world a worse place to be.

    now, i’m pretty sure i’ve got that 2nd part right. the poster said “take all the people out of it”, not “take the people out”, as in killing all of them.

    but my wife read the FIRST part to be a racially motivated statement, meaning that a civil war would be a good thing, because it would “clean house”, meaning that it would lead to the killing of black people.

    however, after reading the whole thing again, and keeping in mind the SECOND statement, about the world and all the people in it, i think that what he/she was saying is that the world is pretty much a messed up place, and maybe a civil war wouldn’t be such a bad thing, because it would “clean house”, or reduce the population by a fair amount, making the world a better place to live in, since we are the ones that are messing it up…not any one race or group.

    i’m pretty sure that was the intent of the statement, and not anything threatening. it was more of a statement about being frustrated with ALL of the people who live on this planet.

    i guess different folks will see the same things in different ways, but hopefully i’m pretty close in my interpretation of the intent of the statements made.

  • nighthawk

    The way I read the comment I actually think “Wondering” was suggesting a REVOLUTION might occur.
    Cleaning House is generally related to Impeachment or Vacating Offices.
    I remember back in the 1980’s when the State Police Commissioner was accused of Drug Charges.
    A State Police Spokesman said something along the lines of:
    “We are perfectly capable of cleaning our own house.” and what the spokesman meant was basically
    that they didn’t need any help in locating and firing any corrupt Troopers.
    And a lot of Troopers was fired, thus the house was cleaned.
    That’s how I read and understood the comment in question.
    I mean a mistake like typing “Civil War” instead of “Revolution” can’t be edited by the writer after it is written.
    I’ve heard talk floating about, and some folks are expecting a revolution no matter who wins the election.
    Personally, I don’t look for anything so drastic to happen… but a few believe a revolution is inevitable.
    After rereading and taking what the Administrators wrote into account, I can see how the comment could
    be interpreted or perceived as a threat, but I think it was just a simple misunderstanding…
    I catch myself starting to say or write civil war instead of revolutionary war sometimes,
    then other times I just don’t catch myself and say it anyways without even noticing until I start
    receiving some strange looks… That’s when I ask “I did say Revolutionary War… Didn’t I?”.

  • sunnyborderblue

    admin –

    i’ve got to agree with you on this one though i’m not sure anyone could accurately interpret what this poster meant – i’m not sure he/she knew what point they were trying to make. it just sounded like random rambling to me, most likely to get a rise out of someone. in my opinion, the best way to deal with this little situation is just to ignore. giving this kind of post any kind of attention is just adding fuel to the fire. all in favor of moving on, say ‘aye’ (not sure about the spelling there 🙂 )………

    thanks for your kind comments regarding my previous posts. i’ve been reading this board for over a year and have seen the back and forths. though they can get a little heated, there’s nothing wrong with that in my opinion, as long as folks don’t get personal. as you’ve said many times, most of us are passionate about our views and will aggressively defend them. you do a solid job of moderating the board and i thank you for giving people a place to discuss issues that are important to us all.

    have a good hump day!!!

  • admin

    Sunny…thanks for the vote of confidence! I’m glad folks are taking a look around here, and I promise everyone I’ll try and do better about posting new content. That’s why I’m trying out the little “Tuesday Talking Points” feature on the front page…I’m going to try and keep that going so that hopefully folks will keep coming around on Tuesdays (and whenever else, as well) to talk about those things…and whatever else they’d like. I’m just trying to give them a place to start.

    As for the post we are talking about, I received an email this evening from “wondering how stupid the world is”, and I think it is all just a big misunderstanding. I think he just has trouble getting out what it is he is trying to say, and it kind of came across in a way that made it a little bit hard to understand and it seemed more inflammatory than I think he had intended. Anyway, he feels pretty bad about what has happened, but I told him not to worry about it, and to keep on posting…if there are misunderstandings, we’ll just take a little time to sort them out, like we are doing right now. 🙂

    so I agree with Sunny…on to new topics!

    I am especially interested in getting some replies on my Tuesday Talking Points, if anyone has any more information about any of them.

    I’ll share a bit more about #3 as the week goes on. it is quite the story. 🙂

  • Reality

    I try not to engage in this foolishness, I hope that anyone who gets on here is smart enough to realize if you have time to get on this website and act like you people do you shouldnt be aloud to vote because you are performing acts of treason!!!! Hiding behind a screen name is not a very american thing to do but oh well guess your parents sucked at teaching you right and wrong. They are people in this area that you could be helping in their day to day life and you are on this site gossiping.

  • OMG!

    Well “Reality”, your comment is hilarious. You say people are hiding behind a screen name yet your name is “reality”. lol!!!!!!!! You talk about people being on here, yet you are also. lol!!!!!!!!! I think the comments posted so far sound as if they are educated and not just some rambling on about nothing. Unlike some other sites that are nothing but gossip and uneducated guesses as to the world issues.

  • admin

    Reality…
    Well, thanks for coming over here and sharing your sunshine-y opinion of this web site, and the internet in general, it sounds like.

    I’m not exactly who it is on here that is performing an act of treason…unless you consider openly discussion your views about the government and the political process treason.

    And it isn’t exactly a secret who I am…pretty easy to find that information out. Now, the rest of the folks on here, it is up to them whether or not they give their real information, and I respect their privacy should they choose not to share it.

    I’m not sure exactly how “hiding behind a screen name” is un-American, either. Some people choose to remain anonymous in order to avoid catching 3 kinds of hell from folks who are, shall we say, less tolerant. It isn’t always a good idea to let everyone know who you are. I agree that in some instances, if you are going to make a stand, you should also not be afraid to let people know who you are, but that just is not always the case.

    Furthermore, I don’t think I’d consider the conversations that go on here to be “gossip”. Now, over on that Topix.net page, that is another story entirely. But if you look at our rules, you’ll see we will not tolerate any sort of commenting that is defamatory in nature.

    This site is not here to promote gossip. This site exists to provide normal, every day people like YOU or ME a place to make our feelings known on whatever issues from our region or our nation are bugging us. So, if you ask me, that IS helping out people. Folks in NEED of help can USE this site to get the word out about that, even. This is a place where the community can come together and provide support if someone needs it.

    You are certainly entitled to your opinion about internet forums and message boards, but I just hope you can look a little more closely and see that this site DOES serve a good purpose in our community.

  • Thank God, I’m not dhunley

    Reality (aka dhunley):

    “performing acts of treason”

    That gave you away, we all know you have taken the “Oath” on AnarchAngel.

  • nighthawk
  • nighthawk

    trying again…

  • nighthawk

    Upgraded again I take it?

  • dhunley

    Sunny,

    Let’s forget, for a moment, about whether or not I’ll be able to opt out of Obama’s national health care plan. Let’s focus on this question:

    Why would I oppose a health care plan that would bring affordable, efficient health care to everyone in America? Or everyone in the WORLD for that matter. The truth of the matter is—I WOULDN’T!

    But you don’t have to believe me in that regard. You don’t even have to believe me when I say it won’t work. Various national health care plans have been tried in many places around the world—and aside from the anecdotal examples of success offered by countries like Canada, France, and England–the general population winds up with inferior health care.

    I admit that people who know this is true are up against it; we’re trying to combat the siren song of “free medical care” and all we have to offer is the harsh reality of facts. I could lay down a stack of facts a mile high—and they’d all be washed away with one story of someone receiving a heart transplant in Canada.

    And the arguments I have to make can easily be turned into “you’re a heartless SOB” by someone like TGINDH. Like for instance in your case. Who SHOULD pay for your medical insurance? It’s YOUR family!

    See what I mean? The ideas of freedom, self-reliance, and can-do has stood on their head and turned into something to be condemned as careless, ignorant, and archaic.

    But what would it take to change your mind about Obama? I know people like Dave and TGINDH would vote for him even if it were discovered he ate babies for breakfast. They know he is a promoter of the things they believe in; things like “the world is over-populated”; “Wal-Mart is an example of evil greed”; “global warming is gonna kill us all”; and “abortion should be a choice”. They’re a closed minded crowd and you’re not gonna be allowed to interfere with their belief system no matter how many facts you have on your side.

    I assume you’ve researched Obama and know his ties with people like Bill Ayers, Rev. Wright, Marshall Davis, Rezzco, ACORN, and all that.

    And I suppose you’ve researched his voting record—or lack thereof. And I’m sure you’re aware of his ever-shifting position on every issue from Cuba to the troop surge in Iraq. If you’re not aware of any one of these—just do the tiniest amount of research.

    So what would it take to change your mind? Would examples of government failure in social programs do it?

  • http://www2.noinfo.info TechKnomen

    Annon Screen names are just smart as there are some extremist
    idiots out there that will slash your tires or worse if you post who the
    pill dealer is in town and who they work for and who fronts the money
    and when the plane flies in from Mena AK or where ever.

  • sunnyborderblue

    hey dhunley………….good to hear from you and hope all is well on your end………….

    it’s frustrating when you pay good money for a car and a month down the road, the alternator goes out – you didn’t get what you paid for. that’s the way i feel about our health care system as it stands now. i don’t care a bit to buy a health care plan if i get a good plan out of it. the problem is that we are not getting what we pay for, in my opinion. i wouldn’t dream of not taking responsibility for my own family, same as you. all i’m asking is that the plan that i pay for is fair and i just don’t believe it is. the system is just flat out broken, you agree with that, and i’m not so sure that it can be fixed as a market based commodity. now, if you’re asking me whether i 100% trust the federal government with respect to our medical services – heck no i don’t, i’m not completely crazy 🙂 however, i don’t trust the insurance companies and their powerful lobbyists either. like you said, there are examples where nationalized health care has worked. all i’m saying is that it is time to really take a hard look at those systems and see if we could make it work here. personally, i would rather pay higher taxes to help pay for nationalized health care than to be at the mercy of insurance companies. it seems to me that it would be cheaper on everyone since people like you and i wouldn’t have to pay such high premiums to compensate for those that don’t have coverage. it also seems like it would be a fair way to insure that everyone has the same type of coverage – not higher quality for the wealthy. i’ve heard the arguments against it and i can understand those concerns, i honestly can, but i believe we could make it successful here as well. by the way, i don’t think you’re a heartless SOB – we both want health care for everyone but just have a difference of opinion in how we feel the country should go about doing that.

    okay, health care, check – now on to the rest of your reply 🙂 you’ll probably be disappointed but actually, i do think the birth rates are out of control (in many countries, especially those where george w. dropped funding for family planning), wal-mart is way too big (and has killed main street USA while at the same time importing most of their product from china – i mean, do you like that type of operation?), global warming is a fact (cyclical, yes but accelerated due to the burning of fossil fuels and other human activities – just look at how the migratory patterns of birds are changing. sounds crazy but they are literally the canary…….) and abortion should be an option for every woman (a tough tough choice – i’ve never heard anyone say that they love abortion). and this is just a pet peeve of mine, and i hope i don’t make you angry, but i just don’t see where a man has a right to be for or against abortion – men don’t get pregnant.

    now, i could go into why i believe all of the above but i won’t subject you to that and plus, you’ve heard the arguments before and still feel the way you do just as i still believe what i do. it’s likely we’re not going to change each others mind and that’s okay. as i’ve said before, we’re just lucky to be able to express our opinions openly without fear of our government. i was talking to a fella today who fought in world war II and was telling me some stories about his experience. as i was listening to him, i got a little choked up thinking about what sacrifices were made in such an extraordinary time. i thanked him for all he did for all of us. as you know, if it weren’t for that generation, we’d all be talking japanese right now and would not be able to moan and groan about the state of affairs as we do. it sounds goofy but it is truly amazing to think of what could have happened.

    i guess that’s how i feel about obama. i sincerely believe, right or wrong, that this is OUR time for OUR generation. as a country, we are in desperate need of leadership and hope. obama, in my opinion, is the person to turn this country around and lead us in the right direction. i really do. there has never been a single person that has affected me like that, ever. i know he doesn’t have the voting record or experience that mccain has but what he does have is the ability to inspire and i think we all need a little inspiration right now, more than anything else. plus, i’m not so sure that years upon years spent in government is such a great thing. i mean, look at harry reid and mitch mcconnell – they both need to go! and yes, i know of all his “ties” to unsavory characters and organizations but just don’t believe they are significant. we both know that you could take almost any member of congress and find just as much dirt if you want to talk about ministers and the such then let’s talk about that fella from colorado or wyoming. i can’t think of his name (was it hagee or something) but he was a staunch opponent of civil unions or any type of gay rights, was the spiritual advisor to many leading members of the republican party and had a huge multi-million dollar church corporation (yes, corporation). yet, he was caught having sex with young men for meth. i mean, come on, there’s trash on both sides of the aisle, right?

    i guess, long story short – i will be casting my vote for obama and am excited to do so. it looks like we’ll cancel each other out 🙂 i wish you would give him a second look but i understand that you feel strongly about your positions and i respect that. i just appreciate the civility of our posts and hope to continue these conversations after next tuesday. take care of yourself and go obama 🙂 (just had to slide that in there!!)

  • dhunley

    Sunny,

    Without a trace of irony awareness, you salute the efforts of a WWII vet to keep this country free—then admit you’re excited to vote for a candidate who is antithetic to that very idea; and you’re doing it in pursuit of a society that has never been achieved. Indeed, the society you pursue has been shown to bring misery and despair everywhere in the world it has been tried.

    And what drives this pursuit? This yet one more attempt to bring about Shangri La here on earth? Why…nothing more than your perceived notion that you’ve being short-changed by our medical system…a medical system, it just so happens, which has brought more life saving drugs, more live saving equipment, more live saving research and development that all the other medical systems conceived by man put together!

    Perhaps I didn’t make myself clear. I did NOT say it has worked anywhere in the world; in fact, I said quite the opposite. It has not worked and it will not work here. What we’ll have is a system that truly short-changes the people yet will be called “successful”—just like our schools are called “successful” now.

    And despite your genteel protestations otherwise, you will indeed force your beliefs onto me.

    You’ll cause my money to be spent on “family planning” because you believe the birth rate is out of control. Who are you to decide whether or not sentient beings are allowed to have children? And, as I asked before, can you name even one place on earth where hunger is a result of a shortage of food? You’ll not be able to. What you may give me are examples of hunger and deprivation as a result of wars and lack of freedom.

    And you’ll curtail the shopping habits of free people by restricting stores like Wal-Mart while being oblivious, it appears, to the efforts of community activists in the past to bring “big box” stores into a community because “mom and pop” stores were gouging the local people. Are you not aware of that? I remember clearly the efforts of “concerned citizens” to bring in Wal-Marts and Hecks and Roses so that people could get a wider variety of goods at prices lower than mom and pop would offer.

    And you’ll impose carbon caps and trades onto me because YOU believe global warming is significantly impacted by man. Despite all the evidence of radical climatic changes in the past, you BELIEVE this change may be different…and you BELIEVE something should be done—so you’re going to take my money and take actions that I don’t believe in.

    Is this not imposing your beliefs onto me?

    And your arguments for abortion. So…since I am a man, you feel I should have no say in the protection of the life of the unborn? Is this really logical? Would you want me to use the argument that because I am a man, I should not be worried about the condition of women’s equality? About their right to vote? To own property? What if men offered that argument—and felt it was true—during the suffrage era? Methinks you’d be trying your level best to convince us otherwise.

    Or how about because I am not a bird, I should not be concerned with their migratory patterns? Or because I am not a polar bear, I should not be concerned with their survival? See how senseless this argument it? Yet, you say I should have no say in something as important as the life of a child?

    Look…Sunny, I know I’m not going to be able to persuade you of anything. I’ve dealt with enough people who believe as you do to know that logic and facts won’t do it.
    Please don’t take this as an insult…it’s not meant to be, it’s just the facts as they are.

    And by this I mean you’ll breathlessly exclaim “Oh My…!” at the comments of a single voter on a four-wheeler—but judge insignificant the fact that your candidate sat for 20 years in the pews of a man who thunders “GD America” from what he claims is a pulpit. Is there any logic to that? Any sense of fair play? Nope…there isn’t.

    But you know what the saddest part of all this is? The majority of people who will be voting for Obama could care less about what you believe…they just want the free goodies he’s promised at every podium.

    They…and you…should know better.

  • sunnyborderblue

    okay dhunley, i’m going to try to address your points as best i can.

    first of all, i don’t know where you come up with the idea of obama being the antithesis of WWII ideals. the war in iraq is not at all similar to WWII. not that saddam hussein was a stand-up guy but bush did lead us into that war on false information. it was a mistake, a big mistake. hussein wasn’t a threat to us or the rest of the world. middle eastern terrorism didn’t exist there until we declared war and i’m pretty sure that’s a fact. typically, i’m a pretty laid back person but i don’t like the tone you took with me on this and i apologize if i misunderstood. as i said before (or think i did), my grandfather served in patton’s army, fought during the battle of the bulge and i appreciate him everyday for what he did for all of us. you shouldn’t be condescending or question my sincerity in that regards just because of my political leanings. even liberals can appreciate historic military achievements and milestones. but…….iraq is not and will not be one of those.

    and what’s wrong with striving for peace? isn’t that always the best option? i for one will not give up on the dream that there can be world peace – and yes, i know that’s corny but goodness, life would be miserable for me if i didn’t hope that someday we would quit going to war.

    i’m not sure why you think medical research will suffer if there was nationalized healthcare. a little more regulation wouldn’t hurt in my opinion. how many times have medications been linked to terrible adverse side effects, effects that the pharmaceutical companies knew about but didn’t release? that’s the problem with our health care system – it is run by the pharmaceutical companies and that just isn’t right. as long as the politicians are getting their pockets full, it won’t change either. now we all know who the winner is there, don’t we?

    i never said hunger was caused by a lack of food – no way. food just doesn’t get to where it needs to go. however, poverty is linked to higher birth rates. nobody wants to keep you from having children, dhunley, but believe it or not, there are women in the world who may not want to be baby factories and would take steps to eliminate that risk if given the option. and no, i’m not talking about abortion, not yet. i’m talking about good old fashioned contraceptives.

    abortion vs women’s right to vote? women’s right to own property? gender equality? as far as i know, it is not as if the majority of men have historically been pro-women in any of these instances. what you’re dealing with there is a civil rights issue, not a personal choice such as abortion. and yes, i do believe that you don’t really have a leg to stand on in the abortion debate unless you can become pregnant. i’m sorry but that’s just my feeling. plus, family planning and abortion are not one and the same – planning is meant to prevent unwanted pregnancies. either you put your money towards family planning or you put it toward supporting the welfare system, either one will cost you money. it seems like it would be cheaper to put a few dollars into family planning programs. i’m not even going to address the you’re not a bird/polar bear thing – that was just silly.

    wal-mart was good for a while – it was but now it is out of control. we don’t have hecks or rose’s or maloneys, all because wal-mart can offer more for less. there has to be a balance. maybe at one time mom and pop stores were ripping people off but wal-mart is doing the same thing now. the jobs wal-mart provides do not even pay a liveable wage (unless you’re a manager), the products are no longer made here and the quality is terrible. shop where you want but i would rather support my local economy and pay a little more than to burn a bunch of gas, drive to wal-mart, buy junk and give nothing back to our economy.

    dhunley, the US is a democracy, not a perfect institution but the best form of government around so far. one of the big sticking points is majority rules. as long as you live in a democracy, you will be “forced” to do things you don’t want to do. it’s not always about the “I” but instead the “we”.

    one last thing, it is a little offensive when you tell me that i don’t understand logic and facts. you act as though just because someone is voting for obama, they must either be stupid or misinformed. now, i don’t believe i ever treated you as though you were foolish for voting for mccain or for your position on certain issues and if i did, i apologize. up until this point, we’ve had a good hearty discussion without any hostility and i’d like to keep it that way but i felt that you’re last post was a little nasty. hopefully, we can resume on a more positive note. take care and have a good week!

  • dhunley

    Sunny,

    You’ve managed to exhibit the same kind of contradictory thought process I’d expect from a modern liberal—and I’ve FINALLY learned that it is a thought process that cannot be breached by logic or thoughtful discussion.

    So I’ve FINALLY quit.

    God Bless you all.

  • admin

    wow…who knew it would take well thought out, consistent, clear, and logical arguments to make dhunley finally give up??

    seriously though, dhunley…if you do come back around, i hope you always know that even though we continuously disagreed on…well….almost EVERYTHING…lol…that i know you in the offline world, and as far as i can tell, we’ve always been able to communicate great any time we’ve met.

    but i am a bit confused how you can accuse Sunny of having a thought process that cannot be breached by logic or thoughtful discussion…frankly, i’ve never seen ANYONE on here exhibit any more logic or thoughtfulness than Sunny has…hell, they have remained remarkably restrained in your discussions and have not gotten ugly once…i’ve really enjoyed reading the comments.

    on the flip side…. about TGINDH’s jabs…

    you 2 obviously have developed some sort of history or Cyberhillbilly’s site, and that has spilled over to here, which is unfortunate. however, i have not really seen the 2 of you actually DISCUSSING anything on this site…you have chosen to ignore them (which was probably wise) and just continue our discussions instead. however, you can be assured that if things did escalate and i felt like TGINDH was being unfairly critical of you or just simply attacking you for the sake of attacking, i would, and i HAVE, said something about it.

    i do not want this site to be nothing but people just constantly arguing with each other. i do prefer a more civil discussion, and my only complaint with you is that even when I’ve tried to keep it that way in the past, or when any number of people have tried to express their feelings, you seem to just tee off on it, instead of you trying to keep the discussion going in a way that is not intimidating or condescending.

    i mean…i understand that there are all sorts of left-wing-liberal nutjobs, just like there are lots of right-wing neocon fascists. 🙂 … but as far as TGINDH’s comments…have you thought about the fact that the things you’ve said and how you’ve presented them lead someone to actually choose a SCREEN NAME based on YOURS?

    what i’m saying is, you have a history around here and when we used to discuss things on RowanReview.com…i’ve tried at every turn to present my arguments as best as i could and in a way where you could see my points, but most of the time, you chose instead to just refer to me as “typical” and as a “modern liberal” who does not understand logic. i HAVE gotten very frustrated with you before, and i know you have with me, as well.

    but see, what you don’t know is that i DO understand your position on some of the issues we talk about, even if i don’t agree on them. and all i have wanted is for us to be able to just find a common ground and work out form there. but you seem convinced that somehow if the Democrats get in control, this country will somehow end up in worse shape than its in now, and i just don’t agree.

    truthfully, i don’t know how much politicians REALLY accomplish at all. Republicans talk a big game against abortion, but they’ve had 8 years to do something about it and what has changed?

    Democrats talk endlessly about universal health care, but Clinton had the wheel for 8 years, and where is it? i still have all of the guns that i had before he was elected, as well.

    so, if you are finally fed up and have had enough, then i wish you nothing but the best in whatever you do, you know that…but hopefully you’ll take a few breaths, realize that we really can keep on discussing issues in a productive way, and start posting again.

    until then…

    have a Happy Election day.

  • Thank God, I’m not dhunley

    Kind of difficult to have a discussion with dhunley, especially when my comments are “deleted”.

    What you have seen here is mild compared to what he let’s loose on Cyber.

    Glad he is showing himself to be what he really is, an extremist.

  • sunnyborderblue

    admin,

    there is no doubt that abortion, gay rights and gun control are all used as wedge issues, which is sad. if republicans did ever succeed in overturning roe vs wade or in passing a federal ban on gay marriage, then how would they turn out the vote? i honestly don’t believe they really want to do do either of those things, much in the same way as democrats will never pass a universal healthcare plan, even if they could. those are all issues that keep people coming to the polls and that fire up the base. it’s one reason why i’m a big proponent of term limits at the local, state and federal level.

    hopefully, dhunley will come back around. i certainly didn’t mean to run him/her off but instead, tried to present my position in a civilized manner. even though there are issues that i feel passionately about, i really do try to understand the arguments for or against on the other side. i think it’s crucial to do so if anything is ever truly going to get accomplished and i expect (and always will, pipe dream or not) our elected officials to do the same.

    so dhunley, if you’re out there and reading this, accept my apology for anything i may have said that offended you so much that you are no longer willing to participate on this site. and though you may not believe this, i do have empathy for your positions even though i disagree with some of them. we can be better than some of those we’ve elected if we are able to have a thoughtful discussion without resorting to name-calling and insults. just because someone doesn’t agree with your position doesn’t mean that common ground can’t be found.

    admin – thank you again for giving us this site to chat about all things, political and otherwise, and for moderating when things get a little touchy.

    take care!!!!!!

  • wondering how stupid the world

    Hi,all
    I want to thank you all for your discussion it help me to get and ideal of what the the American people wanted.

    And with the health care plans I feel the doctors are being over paid and people are being over billed.Like once I had and absess and needed antibiotics the tooth was broken off to the gum level I ended up being charged over $600 for the ER visit at morhead on the bill was a charge of $158 for supplies which consited of 2 tong depressers and 1 rubber glove its things like this when it comes to health care that breaks the econimy.

  • admin

    TGINDH…

    I don’t know if you are talking about your comments being deleted here or on Cyberhillbilly’s site, but I will assume you mean CH, since you have had ZERO comments deleted from this site.

    Sunny, thanks for the encouragement! It gets sticky sometimes, but hopefully everyone feels like they can be free to voice their opinions here.

  • Thank God, I’m not dhunley

    Admin., I would have thought that my previous comments would have made it clear that the “deleted comments” had occurred on Cyberhillbilly, not on this site.

    As for my “jabs”, did anyone not follow the trial in Dover, PA? The idea of Intelligent (Creationist) Design was thoroughly blow out of the water as a scientific theory. There is nothing but Darwin’s theory that makes any scientific sense. Sure, their are some people who will never accept Darwinism. But there are people who do not believe that we have sent people to the moon either, does that mean we should give equal weight to the non-believers of space travel?

    And after being called ” ….a child like jackal of the far left….never thinks for himself, never tries to think outside that little box he’s created in his dream world–and he’s never had anything constructive to say as far as I’ve been able to determine.”

    “…..who is mean spirited……who has nothing but ill-will toward mankind”.

    I’m very glad you have assured dhunley that if I (TGINDH) “was being unfairly critical of you(dhunley) or just simply attacking you for the sake of attacking, i,would, and i Have, said something about it.”

    I don’t need that kind of reassurance, I’m a big boy and I can take care of myself.

    I’ll be around as long as dhunley is here.

  • dhunley

    A friend has asked me to keep posting some of my ideas on here. Not with the hope of changing the hearts and minds a modern liberal—we both agree that is a fruitless endeavor. Ironic, isn’t it? The group that loves to view and promote them selves as “enlightened” and “tolerant” are among the most closed minded, inflexible, and intolerant people on the planet.

    My goal, rather, is to expose the contradictory thought process of the modern liberal. So, here goes:

    THEY don’t really believe in evolution—and they CERTAINLY don’t want US to, either!

    What if you and I and everyone else suddenly realized that evolution was true? It would also be true, then, that 99% of all species that has ever existed has become extinct. So…the loss of genetic diversity is of no concern and the loss of a species like the bald eagle or polar bear is normal and to be expected.

    In fact, their loss may actually be beneficial to mankind since they’d be competitors of resources—except that the idea of “beneficial” has no place in the evolutionary scheme of things; it just is what it is.

    But an actual belief in evolution has ramifications beyond genetic diversity or concern for individual species. It would also mean we need not concern ourselves with the “poor”, with the “helpless”, or about the Iraq war, or the middle class, or any other moral or social issue; once again, it just is what it is.

    Now watch what happens if a modern liberal–or perhaps someone like Dave or Sunny—chooses to respond to this.

  • admin

    well, first off, welcome back, dhunley.

    next, i’m not sure if you are calling Sunny and myself “modern liberals” or not…or if you think of us in a higher regard. 🙂

    before i start, i want to point something out…TO EVERYONE…it has always been important to me that this site be a place where folks can have a CONVERSATION with each other…arguments are fine, but it has always been my hope that things could be discussed in a way that, even if it gets heated, it wouldn’t get nasty.

    so, let’s just remember to always try and attack the POSITION, not the person.

    so, with that in mind….

    dhunley, i know you don’t believe in evolution, and truthfully, that doesn’t bother me at all. i am all for people believing in whatever they choose to. i just happen to believe that it is a scientific truth, but you will never find me trying to force that belief on anyone. now, i will argue very passionately about my position, and i will try to convince you that my position is the right one, but i will not say that you are wrong in NOT believing it…just that your arguments AGAINST it are wrong…or that your arguments FOR creationism have just as many if not more leaps of faith that have to be made in order to believe it.

    you know that i’ve always argued that i believe that there is sort of a combo-process that went on. i fully believe in evolution, but i also believe that the whole process and system was put in place by a higher power.

    i don’t need to see an animal evolve right in front of my face, and i don’t need the higher power come down and give a press conference on how it all works…i feel like i have enough evidence to support evolution AND to support the existence of a higher power.

    so, as for your argument above, you’ve sort of made this argument before, and i didn’t understand it then, and i’m not sure that i do now.

    you make the leap that if one believes in evolution, then that person should also be fine with losing species, and should be fine with whatever happens to the poor or helpless…or shouldn’t care what happens in the Iraq war or any other war.

    i really cannot understand this argument, and i think you are really just trying to provoke some reaction. i’m fairly certain that someone as intelligent as you understands the fact that what you have just said really makes no sense…that believing in evolution requires you to just hand over your moral compass.

    doesn’t it also make sense to believe that we have evolved to actually HAVE this moral compass?? to have this caring for our fellow man and the world around us?

    i’m interested why you think that to embrace evolution would mean just giving up, basically, and going with the flow, instead of being aware of what is going on around us and wanting to take part it in?

    you seem to think that folks who believe in evolution should all just throw their hands up and say, “oh well! it is part of the process…who are WE to fight it??”…that would be fine if we were, say, rabbits or water buffalo. we’d just be concerned about our survival, finding food, and reproducing.

    but see, we are a unique species…we have a conscience…we have morality…we have spread all across this planet but at the same time have remained connected to one another. we have been blessed (or cursed) with the ability to sympathize and to worry and to care…something that very few other species have.

    those abilities also allow us to question things…to wonder about how things came to be…to dream about how things COULD be…to understand and believe in a process as complex as evolution, while still believing that a higher power helps guide us on our way.

    It is that same awareness that helps us to know that bald eagles dying could be just written off as “evolution”, but understanding that WE directly had a hand in causing their demise, and feeling like we need to do something to help them survive.

    so see, we are unique. we are the result of an incredibly long process, but are we the END result? we sometimes feel like we are, but who really knows? the world continues to evolve around us, and we continue to change as the years go on. we pass on new genetic strengths, and new genetic weaknesses…we alter our environment…we really do change the world we live in.

    so i don’t know how it will all end up. all i can do is follow MY moral compass and do and say what i feel is right…after all, isn’t that the way that God and Evolution intended it to be? 🙂

  • sunnyborderblue

    dhunley – glad you decided to come back and chat. unfortunately, you started off by criticizing some folks who don’t agree with everything you say or believe. hopefully, you’ll learn that if you want to be credible in convincing people of something, then it is not always the best idea to be so critical of them. that just starts everything off on the wrong foot you see.

    anyway, on to your take on evolution and species extinction. yes, species have gone extinct for millions of years for various reasons. the island biogeography theory predicts that as the number of species increases, the number of extinctions increases due to increased competition for limited resources, including food, space and mates. the question many evolutionary biologists ask themselves now is whether natural levels and patterns of species extinction are occurring. most agree that it is not and data supports that conclusion. other reasons for extinction lie in adaptations that worked at one time but don’t work anymore. some predators developed adaptations that allowed them to feed on a limited number of prey types. if those prey types become less common (due to island biogeography or other reasons), then it’s hard times ahead for that particular predator.

    you brought up the bald eagle so i’ll go with that. now i could be wrong about this but it seems that there was a link between nest success and ddt (the pesticide) use. basically, eagles were unable to raise a clutch successfully because the egg shells were too thin due to ddt exposure (through the adult). now i don’t know why exactly thin egg shells impact hatching rates (i’m not an oologist) but there is a relationship. look at the cowbird, a nest predator of another type. cowbirds are able to infiltrate into a forest 200 yards or so wherever a road is built. now, cowbirds basically trick songbirds into raising their young thus decreasing the nest success of songbirds (such as the cerulean warbler for instance – i’ve seen this myself). as far as i know, neither ddt nor roads are “natural” occurrences – they’re manmade, correct? therefore, many of the species extinctions that we are on the verge of seeing today are not due to normal natural causes. that’s not to say that all threatened species are in that situation due to our activity – there are certainly some that still fall into the natural fluctuation category.

    i’m not sure i follow your argument regarding a belief in evolution and the lack of concern for those less fortunate. as admin said, we are a different type of species, be it good or bad, and have an obligation and desire to help those around us, human and nonhuman. if you truly believe that proponents of evolution have no conscience, then that is intolerant and inflexible. i don’t believe that just because someone believes in creationism, then they must not believe in the existence of the atom or electrons. that’s one of the great things about having such an advanced brain – we can reconcile opposing and often contradictory views. nobody is asking you to believe in evolution and i’m certainly not trying to convince you of anything. your beliefs are your beliefs and everybody should have an opportunity to draw their own conclusions.

    just my thoughts……..

  • Thank God, I’m not dhunley

    Somewhere in dhunley’s comments there is some kind of an attach on the natural selection theory, I am still not sure what point he is trying to make. But I’m sure we will enlighten us.

  • http://rowanreview.com dhunley

    Sunny,

    You misunderstand me; I don’t give a fig about convincing anyone of anything. “Persuasion” is not my intent. My intent is to seek the truth and to speak it. If you identify any instance of my not doing so, please prove it rather than trying give me a hints about how to win friends and influence people; and, please, spare me the Evolution 101 course. Okay? The fact that you use the fallacy of the eagle and DDT as an example is proof enough for me you’re not qualified.

    Insulted? Sorry…but why should you be insulted by the above and then expect me to hunker down and accept your silly admonition about how I should speak my mind? And did I insult your intelligence with my “not qualified” comment? Then why would you think I shouldn’t be insulted by your assumption that I have not considered and cannot grasp the most basic idea of evolution?

    See? Condescension and arrogance works both way, doesn’t it? Do you wish to have a real discussion—or do we continue the joust?

    For now, I’ll assume we want to actually try to communicate.

    Sunny…you cannot logically have it both ways with evolution. You cannot claim that man is a product of natural evolution—and then turn around and claim that something man does is NOT natural.

    But that’s what you’re trying to do. Consider this statement:

    “…we are a different type of species, be it good or bad, and have an obligation and desire to help those around us, human and nonhuman. “

    Who says we have an “obligation” to help those around us? You? Who are you? And where’s your proof of this obligation? On what premise are you going to hang that argument upon?

    I think you’ll find yourself drawing upon some intangible belief system that you will HAVE to argue is better than someone else’s. If you don’t think so—try it.

    Try making any kind of argument that mankind owes anything at all to anything or anybody …really consider it…and you’ll find yourself in that quandary. You’ll find yourself struggling to even define what is “good” and what “bad”—let alone trying to determine which is which.

    Look…Sunny…you’ll have to trust me on this. I have no desire to make anyone my enemy. I also have no desire to propagate information I feel is not accurate; in fact, I’m devoting myself to following the truth where ever it may lead.

  • sunnyborderblue

    dhunley,

    first off, i wasn’t trying to give you an evolution 101 course, just stating my argument – i’m glad you’ve taken an introductory biology course. second, i’m certainly sorry that you found me condescending but to be honest, i often find you quite condescending and self-righteous. you’re trying to seek and spread “truth”. well that’s fine…….so define “truth” for me. from what i remember from my philosophy 101 course (which i absolutely despised) is that everybody’s truth is different. but i don’t need to tell you that – i’m sure you’ve had philosophy courses (and no i don’t mean that condescending). third, no, i’m not insulted that you don’t think i’m intelligent or qualified enough to speak on evolution or anything else for that matter. maybe i’m not but it doesn’t mean i can’t have an opinion. fourth, no, i don’t expect you to hunker down and accept my admonition. in fact, i’m so dumb that i don’t even know what admonition means……seriously. by challenging and/or presenting counter points to your arguments does not signal that i don’t want you to speak your mind. who am i to keep you from doing that and why would i want to?

    now on to what we were actually discussing, if you’d like to continue.

    the fallacy of the bald eagle and ddt use? try googling “bald eagle and ddt”. here’s one result:

    http://www.usflag.org/baldeagle.html — the source is the US Fish and Wildlife Service:
    “The greatest threat to the bald eagle’s existence arose from the widespread use of DDT and other pesticides after World War II. DDT was sprayed on croplands throughout the country and its residues washed into lakes and streams. There, they were absorbed by aquatic plants and small animals that were eaten by fish. The contaminated fish, in turn, were consumed by bald eagles.

    The chemical interfered with the bald eagle’s ability to develop strong shells for its eggs. As a result, bald eagles and many other bird species began laying eggs with shells so thin they often broke during incubation or otherwise failed to hatch. Their reproduction disrupted, bald eagle populations plummeted. As the dangers of DDT became known, in large part due to Rachel Carson’s famous book Silent Spring, this chemical was banned for most uses in the United States in 1972.”

    you’ll read that the article goes on to state other factors that played a part in the bald eagles population drop – i was just using ddt as an example. here’s one more source:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bald_eagle
    “Once a common sight in much of the continent, the Bald Eagle was severely affected in the mid-20th century by a variety of factors, among them thinning of egg shells, attributed to the use of the pesticide DDT.[27] Bald Eagles, like many birds of prey, were especially affected by DDT due to biomagnification. DDT itself was not lethal to the adult bird, but it interfered with the bird’s calcium metabolism, making the bird either sterile or unable to lay healthy eggs. Female eagles laid eggs that were too brittle to withstand the weight of a brooding adult, making it nearly impossible to produce young.[18]”
    18 – Bull J, Farrand, J Jr (1987). Audubon Society Field Guide to North American Birds:Eastern Region. New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 468-9. ISBN 0-394-41405-5.
    27 – Brown, Leslie (1976). Birds of Prey: Their biology and ecology. Hamlyn, 226. ISBN 0-600-31306-9.

    honestly, dhunley, i’m not posting these things to be a jerk. it’s just to prove that i did not pull the relationship between the bald eagle and ddt out of la la land.

    Your quote:

    “Sunny…you cannot logically have it both ways with evolution. You cannot claim that man is a product of natural evolution—and then turn around and claim that something man does is NOT natural.”
    I see what you’re saying here since i did make a comment that roads were not natural yet i agree that, of course, we are a product of evolution. but in fact, i can say the the effects man has on our environment are not natural. when we have a choice, and we do, why shouldn’t we choose to take into account our impact on living things around us. of course the development of a larger brain is a product of evolution but the actions we take with that brain are often not natural. deer trails – natural; I-64 – not natural. now, this doesn’t mean that i think we shouldn’t build roads, we should just think about and weigh the impacts of those roads.

    Your quote:
    “Who says we have an “obligation” to help those around us? You? Who are you? And where’s your proof of this obligation? On what premise are you going to hang that argument upon?
    I think you’ll find yourself drawing upon some intangible belief system that you will HAVE to argue is better than someone else’s. If you don’t think so—try it.

    Try making any kind of argument that mankind owes anything at all to anything or anybody …really consider it…and you’ll find yourself in that quandary. You’ll find yourself struggling to even define what is “good” and what “bad”—let alone trying to determine which is which.”

    remember, i said obligation and desire to help those around us. you see this in many animal communities, not just humans. would you not stop to help someone who was hurt? would you not feel an obligation or desire? do you not think it would be “bad” to not help if you were able? i mean, i guess everybody is different but i know i would and i don’t need a black and white concrete definition of what is good or what is bad to make that decision – since you asked, that is who i am and i’m comfortable with that gray area. who are you?

    now i’m not much into getting into philosophical arguments (i’m not a very deep thinker) but i think we can agree that, as a species, humans have the capacity to impact everything around us in a positive and negative manner. all that meat we’ve eaten has given us these large brains (or so it is said 🙂 ) and with those brains we have been blessed with reasoning skills above and beyond anything that has yet to be seen. and so, to me, yes we do have an obligation to try and diminish our effect on natural communities, including our own. i guess i just don’t see what is so difficult in admitting that not everything is clear cut. of course, there are flaws in arguments and questions about what is right and what is wrong. is that a result of an intangible belief system? sure it is but i don’t know what is wrong with that either. lots of folks would say christianity is an intangible belief system but churches are full every sunday. the long and short of it is that i’m not going to kid myself in thinking that i can find “truth”. civilizations have been trying for thousands of years and i guess folks will keep trying. me, i’ll just keep my fingers crossed and stick to my intangible belief system…….take care.

  • dhunley

    And sunny…about this:

    “nobody is asking you to believe in evolution and i’m certainly not trying to convince you of anything. your beliefs are your beliefs and everybody should have an opportunity to draw their own conclusions.”

    Are you sure about that? In schools across this land, evolution is taught as absolute fact—you can’t even question it. If you don’t believe me, try reading the below statement to a school in Dover, PA.

    And wasn’t it you who was upset that funding for family planning overseas had been cut? Isn’t it because of your “belief” that you think our money should be spent on this endeavor?

    Yet I’ll bet donuts to dollars you’d fully support the idea that all “cultures” should be respected. Am I right? Do you think “multicultural pluralism” is a good idea?

    While it may be true that

    “that’s one of the great things about having such an advanced brain – we can reconcile opposing and often contradictory views.”

    A truly “advanced brain” should be able to recognize mutually exclusive conditions—and I’m sure you could, too, except that you’ve allowed your belief system to interfere with logic.

    Now…here’s what the statement (merely a statement) that the Dover, PA wanted read before a biology class—then tell me, if you agree with the ruling there, how you can say “everybody should have an opportunity to draw their own conclusions”.
    The Pennsylvania Academic Standards require students to learn about Darwin’s theory of evolution and eventually to take a standardized test of which evolution is a part.
    Because Darwin’s Theory is a theory, it is still being tested as new evidence is discovered. The Theory is not a fact. Gaps in the Theory exist for which there is no evidence. A theory is defined as a well-tested explanation that unifies a broad range of observations.
    Intelligent design is an explanation of the origin of life that differs from Darwin’s view. The reference book, Of Pandas and People is available for students to see if they would like to explore this view in an effort to gain an understanding of what intelligent design actually involves.
    As is true with any theory, students are encouraged to keep an open mind. The school leaves the discussion of the origins of life to individual students and their families. As a standards-driven district, class instruction focuses upon preparing students to achieve proficiency on standards-based assessments.

  • dhunley

    TGINDH…hang in there son, you’re in way over your head. But, if you keep dog peddling, you might be able to see us going out of sight.

    Sorry to the reasonable folks out there…but I feel absolutely no compulsion to suffer people like TGINDH gladly.

  • Thank God, I’m not dhunley

    dhunley, you do yourself proud, please continue.

  • dhunley

    Dave…I do hold you and Sunny in higher esteem than I do “modern” liberals like, for instance, TGINDH. You know I’ve enjoyed our spirited debates…and if we didn’t get a little bent out of shape sometime I guess it might mean weren’t passionate or didn’t really care.

    I’ve asked you in the past to grant me that I’m being as truthful and sincere as I can in my beliefs and comments—and I do the same for you. I think many communication problems arise when we try to assign motives to comments that are not spoken.

    Allow me to address a couple of points specifically. Here:

    “dhunley, i know you don’t believe in evolution, and truthfully, that doesn’t bother me at all.”

    I appreciate that…and it doesn’t bother me that you believe in evolution.

    “i am all for people believing in whatever they choose to.”

    Great…I appreciate that too, and it’s a sentiment I share. However, that sentiment isn’t being practiced in our schools or tolerated in our popular media. I have no problem whatsoever with the theory of evolution being taught in school…BUT, I DO have a problem when we aren’t even allowed to question it.

    “i just happen to believe that it is a scientific truth,”

    I can understand and respect that…however, “believe” is the key word there—and I would think you’d have to admit there are holes in the theory that you could steer an aircraft carrier through.

    “but you will never find me trying to force that belief on anyone.”

    While YOU may not be trying to force that belief on anyone, unfortunately, that is exactly what is happening in our schools. And, as the Dover, PA case illustrated, dissension or alternatives are not tolerated.

    “now, i will argue very passionately about my position, and i will try to convince you that my position is the right one,”

    Again…Great…I love it. But don’t we need to establish what would make your position the right one? I contend that if you’re going to make the claim that your position is scientific, then it behooves you to show that it meets the scientific criteria. And that criteria, as defined and adhered to by the established scientific community, is that it:

    Can be repeated

    Can be used to predict the specific outcome of future events

    Be falsifiable

    Can describe what is observed.

    Now…does your theory of evolution meet any of those conditions? I’m prepared to listened carefully to any of your arguments (provided they’re not just another of the endless examples of adaptability within species being pawned off as evolution…or the statement that “all the scientists agree”). Heck…lol…I’ll listen to any of your arguments—just curious in that regard.

    “but i will not say that you are wrong in NOT believing it…just that your arguments AGAINST it are wrong”

    Fine…refer to the above and explain how my arguments against it are wrong.

    “or that your arguments FOR creationism have just as many if not more leaps of faith that have to be made in order to believe it.”

    True enough…I’ll agree whole-heartedly. My belief is actually dependent on that leap of faith. Does this meaning you’re actually agreeing that the belief in evolution is a leap? 🙂

    Long enough for now…out of time anyway…talk with you soon and I’m eagerly awaiting your response.

  • Thank God, I’m not dhunley

    It should be noted, that under the terms of the definition of “science” put forth by the “experts” who promoted “intelligent design/creationism” at the recent Dover trial , “astrology” is a science. That was agreed to by the “scientist” testifying in defense of “intelligent design/creationism”.

    Until such time as the deniers of Darwin, can separate their personal religious beliefs from scientific facts, they are doomed to the status of the flat earth society.

    There is no truly scientific theory that , at this time, challenges Darwin’s theory. (Period)

    You can believe what ever mumbo-jumbo you want. Just don’t teach it to our students in public school as Science.

  • dhunley

    Sunny…I’ve found that when someone says they’re comfortable with the truth being “grey”…they usually mean YOUR truth being grey; THEIR truth, they insist, is crystal clear to anyone, they want it unchallenged, and they want it enforced.

    You’re not one of those people, are you?

    Sunny, you have not made the case about how mankind is a natural product of evolution—yet somehow do something that is NOT natural. How is this possible? How is a deer trail “natural” but I-64 is not, although both deer and mankind is a product of natural evolution?

    You see? You’re going to have to make the argument that something—something you must define—separates our actions (and specific actions, at that) from the actions of other animals that alter their environment.

    Of course you can “say” that the effects man has on our environment are not natural…we live in a free country and people can pretty much “say” whatever they want; however, saying it does not make it so.

    And you ask “When we have a choice, and we do, why shouldn’t we choose to take into account our impact on living things around us”? Of course, my question to you would be:

    “Why should we?”

    We’re trying to establish, here, that you desire to impose your belief onto other people without any more justification that what you “believe” to be true. You have no evidence to support your belief—or, if you do, present it.

    Otherwise, I can say I-64 is just as natural as a deer trail with just as much authority (actually, with even more authority that you’d have to accept IF you fully believed in evolution).

    That’s why I said earlier (or in some other forum) that people who SAY they believe in evolution, sure don’t act like it.

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